19: Legalize it

Mario: And there we go

Alan: Hey, got the count in there.

although , I'm gonna, I'm gonna
give you a some feedback there.

One of the fonts was different.

Is that intentional?

Mario: No, no, it's not.

I haven't figured out how to fix that.

It seems to happen only
the first time that you

Alan: is it,

is it using a web font or something?

Loading it in

Mario: Yeah.

I mean, it's supposed to be using the
same font that everything is, you know,

that everything is using in the UI,
but for some reason, the first number

it's like it's not cached or something.

And then after that it's cached

Alan: I mean, it's kind of quirky, right?

So you get the countdown into
recording, but it's in a unusual

font for the first number.

Mario: yeah.

It's, it's kind of weird.

I haven't figured out how

Alan: well, the fix there is just
not to use a web font for that.


Just use the browser font.

So they're all in serif.

Mario: Yeah.


Maybe, maybe I'll just do
that, like system UI or

something, something like that.


That's a good

Alan: That's nice though.

That's nice idea.

So yeah, for, for, for everybody
else, basically, there's a, there's

a countdown when you start recording.

So everybody knows that
you're about to go.

That's nice.

Mario: Yeah.

I, I noticed other recording
tools like Loom or, you know,

recording tools kind of do that.

but actually it came out of necessity.

actually, because there's some
pre-procesing stuff that needs to

happen when you click the record button.

And so I need a little bit of
extra, couple of seconds to,

to just get some stuff going.


some stuff has to init there

Alan: Yeah.

It's it actually works both better
for you and for the user as well.

It's a bit of a warning what's coming in.

Mario: exactly.

So at, at first I was like, okay,
I need, that little delay, but

I don't wanna just delay it.

And so I figure, okay.

A countdown would be perfect.

So it works both ways.


Alan: nice.

it's nice.

Also, I notice the not recording is
highlighted a bit more to make it clear

that you are not recording, right.

That was,

Mario: yeah, actually before there was
nothing at all, if you weren't recording,

Alan: ah, so you didn't actually
realize you weren't recording.

Mario: Yeah.

So, so one of the questions I got from
someone was like, okay it wasn't so

much a question, but we were chatting
and it became obvious to me that there

wasn't something there that was clear.


Like there's something there when you are
recording, like right now that you can

see that it's recording, but there wasn't
anything there when you're not recording.

So just to reassure you, right.

So it's equally important.

I think to know when it, it's not

Alan: Oh, definitely.

Because again, the, the expectation
might be while I'm on screen,

so therefore it's recording.


I can imagine how people
would assume that.

So make it clear.

Mario: Yeah.

So I figured it.

would be good to add a, a label there
for the not recording state as well.

So there's a couple of minor
changes that I had to put in.

I guess I might as well share

Alan: Go for it.



Well, you you're on a roll

Mario: since, since we're at it.

And I thank you for giving me your
email address to share the notion notes.

Alan: yeah.

Why haven't we done this before?

I dunno.

Mario: I know, right.


Alan: we're really organized here.

Mario: I, know

Alan: I, on, on the same, on the
same note I've, I've done notes

for that edited, but not published
episode, like three times now.

And because I've been just doing it
in transistors browser interface,

and then I've come back and my
machine's been like, Hey, guess what?

I crashed overnight.

And you've just lost
the thing you typed in.

So I'm like, okay.

I'm I'm like, okay, I need
to not do it in the browser.

I just need so, cause it
course listening to it.

I'm like, oh, I'll tell I put
what we, you know, the URLs we

talk about and stuff like that.

And then yeah, just, yeah.

Thanks mate

Mario: yeah.

Or what you could do too
is save it as a draft.

Alan: Right.

I sh that that's what I should have done.

So I, what I did is I I'll
put like the show notes at the

bottom of each episode in Notion.

So just we can, I can edit it in there
and then we've got a record of it anyway.

So yeah.

I don't know why I didn't do that before.

There's nothing worse than doing the
same thing that you've already done

again, it comes like a real chore, right.

First time, it's like, okay,
I can do this second time.

You're like, I've already done this.

Why am I having to do this again?

The third time?

Really not fun.

Mario: yeah.


I hate it when that happens.

I was using some other tool the other
day and forget which one it was, but it

has like a Modal i nterface and And when
you hit the, escape key, if you happen

to hit, hit the escape key, it takes you
out of it and you lose that you typed

Alan: the, the stuff you
entered with it, right?

Mario: Yeah.

And it, and it is weird though,
cuz it's a, it's like a modal so

it should, it should stay there
typically modals, if you don't

clear, it, it, you know, stays there,

Alan: Especially when
there's a text century box.


Again, because this is that weird
thing with, you know, replacing

stuff that the browser does for you
with, you know, JavaScript and you

lose expectations in the process.


Cuz you know, if you navigate away from
a webpage, I'll say, you sure you want,

you're gonna, is the data on this?

Are you sure?

Whereas yeah, when you do a new
JavaScript, guess what you , if the, the

developer doesn't do that themselves, then

Mario: Yeah.


Alan: that functionality.

Mario: And, and I did it like twice.

Also, if you click outside,
it just takes you out.

So it's one time I hit escape.

I lost what I was putting and
then I, and then I clicked

outside and I lost it again.

I was like, oh,

Alan: Yeah, actually that's one of the
things I did on DotPlan was if you, when

you're entering text for the plans and
the achievements, cuz they're like, you

know, intentionally one liner, things
like did this, did that they save when you

click save or hit return, but for the free
form text section save every like two or

three seconds just so if you can navigate
away, come back and it's just there.

Expectation is like, you know,
it's, if you've typed it in, then

you probably don't wanna lose it.


So, I mean, it's, that's one of the
nice things that, you know, live

view is like, so trivial to do that.

It's kind of nice to, nice to have that.

Mario: Nice.


Alan: Sorry, interrupted you there.

Mario: Oh no, no, no worries.

It's all free flowing here.

free flowing conversation.


So you might notice, I have some
sound foam back here behind me.

So I got a few panels the other
day and I had 'em last time we

met, but I forgot to mention it.

And I didn't get enough apparently,
cuz I don't like the square

that, you know, you can see there

Alan: window there, right?

Mario: yeah.

So I got more

Alan: yeah, you maybe spread them out.

Doesn't have to be all like,
you know, continuous, right?

Mario: together.


I was thinking about that.

I did get more though.

So I might just, I don't know, add more

Alan: your, your room does sound
a little bit more echoy than mine.

I don't know whether mine, because
I'm not I have both curtains and

I'm sat not square to any wall.

So I don't know if it's just the
angle I'm at, whereas you are,

you know, you have effectively a
flat wall in front of you, right?


Mario: yeah.

I do.

And I have some curtains here
on the side for the window, but

they're they're open right now,
so they're not, I Should I should.

That's a good idea.

I should probably just close 'em when,
when we record so that it I absorbs

more sound cuz they're they're there.

I could, I should use them, but
the other walls don't have much.

I mean, I have picture frames and, what
have you, but not, not nothing soft

Alan: Mm

Mario: can absorb.

That's why I put those,
these foams behind me.

So hopefully this helps, a little bit and
I got more, so I'm gonna fill it up more.

Alan: Nice.

Mario: So it'll have a
nice a bsorbing area there.

So hopefully that, makes for a

Alan: It's having seen my brother go
through the, the fun of soundproofing

things for a studio is kind of
like, I don't understand it.

, it's very complicated to get
it, to get it sounding right.


But it's kind of magic when he does it.

Mario: yeah, no, I'm,
this is all I'm doing.

I'm just, you know, just trying to
improve it a little bit and that's it.

And yeah, I'll, I'll leave
it a, a that cuz otherwise.


I can't spend too much time on
but yeah, hopefully it sounds

better going forward with that.

I finally ran a really long
ethernet, cable from my router

downstairs up to my office space here

Alan: So we're gonna get nice
solid five bar signal now.


Mario: Yeah.

And it Seems to be to be working

Alan: I mean, it made such a massive
difference to my quality of life here.

And the, the crazy thing is I
can see the router is, is there,

it, it, I could throw this at it.


But it's, yeah, I got this ridiculously
long flat ethernet cable and just

like went all the way around.

the apartment.

And it is ridiculous cuz as I, it is
right there, but to get there to there

and not trip over it, it's like, it's

Mario: yeah.

Alan: and it's weird.


You measure it and it's never long,
you know, you're like, it can't

possibly be like that many meters.

And you're like actually throw in
an extra five because you'll want

to go around the corner there and

Mario: oh yeah,

Alan: it's crazy how yeah, the
actual circumference is way

longer than you think it should

Mario: way longer.

If you're going around things and
going, you know, up and down and,

and just to get it out of the way
and that's exactly what I had to do.

And I, I did get the flat type and
we have baseboards that are white,

so I got the white flat cable.

And so I ran it all along the
baseboard as inconspicuous as possible.

and I went and I had to go around a
doorframe downstairs and then back

down you know, it's just like a long
route to get all the way up here.

And so I got a a hundred foot cable,

Alan: Yep.

Mario: To make sure that I had enough, I,

Alan: It's better, better
too much than too level.


Mario: yeah.


Alan: But I say it it's crazy.

Just how much of a
difference it makes again.

It's well worth it.

Mario: yeah.

Alan: congratulations.

Happy new ethernet.

Mario: Yeah.


I released a, couple of bug fixes
that were really necessary to

improve the recording reliability.

So including this, three second countdown
and couple of other things that I

needed to fix and, make more robust.

Alan: does that mean

Mario: So.

Alan: to release?

Mario: Yes, definitely.

And, and, and this is it.

Hopefully nothing else comes up that
gets reported by users and not planning

on, on touching any more features
or doing any, any of that for now.

So after those bug fixes, I
released yesterday actually.

I don't really have anything else
that's pressing that I, that I,

Alan: Really?

No, no

blockers now.

So you're happy with all the
reliability, the recording.


Mario: So far.

Yeah, so far it's so good.

I, yeah.

If, if nothing else comes up,
you know, crossing fingers

Alan: So the, the remaining thing is
the subscription partitioning rate.

The restrictions.

Yeah, that's the, that's the,
that's the one remaining thing.


Mario: yes.

And I started working on that already, so
I first, I filed for my business entity.

So I am waiting for that to, you
know, go through the, the whole

Alan: Does that take long?


Mario: Yeah.

it can take a couple of weeks, but

Alan: not too bad.



It's I'm assuming it gets, yeah.

Reasonably, is it done online?

Reasonably straightforward.

Mario: I am using an online service
to do it, but you know, they, they

file for you, you with the state.


Alan: is that an L is it
LLC there that you do?

Mario: LLC mm-hmm . Yeah.


So and actually an issue came
up that I had to deal with.

They sent me an email that they
needed some, some information

that wasn't correct or something.

And took care of that today.

So now hopefully the process will continue
and move forward and within a week or

two, hopefully I'll have that taken care

Alan: official again.

Mario: Yeah, yeah.

Alan: it's I, I forget it's
there you have to, it's not too

expensive to do in The US, I think.

Is it

Mario: It's not too expensive.

The, the fee actually, if you do
it yourself, the, because You could

definitely file with the state yourself,
do it all yourself, which is the

way I did it before, you know, a few
years ago when I, I formed my first.

Alan: last time.


Mario: Yeah.

I did it.

I did it myself last time.

And it was also an LLC and it was only
like, you know, less than a hundred

dollars for the filing fee and plus
some other expenses related to that.

I think overall it was around
maybe a couple hundred dollars,

Alan: That's cool.

Mario: but this time around I'm using
a service, cuz I just don't wanna

be dealing cuz you know, it's not
that complicated, but it just takes

Alan: yeah, exactly.


Mario: and, and then if you do it with
the state, you, they don't, I don't

think unless they have a way to do it
online now with the state back when

I did it, it was all by mail because
there was no, way to do it online.

I don't know if they have
that now, but you know, I just

didn't wanna deal with that.

So I It's it's money well spent just
to pay a service, to do it for you.

And you know, it's all, electronic
because I'm just dealing with them and

they deal with the state, you know,

Alan: They just know what they're doing.


I mean, it's so stressful this
stuff anyway, it's like, you

know, doing taxes and things.

It's like, I, I kind of know
what I should be doing, but every

single thing you doubt yourself and
you're like, am I doing this right?

Is there something I should
know that I don't know.

it's one thing, anything that
removes anxiety and stress, is

it well worth paying a little
bit of money for if you can

Mario: yeah, yeah.

And at some point I considered using
Stripe Atlas for that, but from what

I understand, they don't do LLCs

Like this, like I'm filing with
the state of California forming

it with the state of California.

Alan: have to do a, is it, is it
that you do a Delaware operation if

Mario: Del Delaware.

Alan: of yeah.

Where you are, right.

Mario: Yeah.


They, they do it with Delaware and,
and they do, I don't think it's an LLC.

They do like a C Corp or S

Alan: I, I think that there
is some options, but yeah.

I mean, it didn't really fit
for what I needed either.

So I think we talked about
that before, but makes

Mario: And it, it it's a bit pricey too.

It's more than what I'm paying
this other service to do the LLC


Alan: it's interesting.

It sounds like, you know it sounds
like a really interesting product.

But I'm it who it's right
for is not that wide.


I think there's, there's,
there's definitely cases

where it really makes sense.

But my first understanding was
that it would, would work for a lot

more people and it probably does.

So it's, I think that the idea behind it
is really powerful and I think there's

just being able to democratize that.

Down to, you know, one entity that you
deal with and it's a known, fixed quantity

in terms of price and just making it a
very known process that you can just,

you know, follow the process through.

Whereas everything else feels
a bit like you're kind of

figuring out yourself and yeah,

Mario: Yeah, Yeah.


Yeah, So we'll see how, how that goes.

Hopefully it doesn't take too long.

And I also started working on the
terms of use and privacy policy.

I'm using a, a service for that too.

I'm paying for, I don't
know if you've heard of it.

It's called


it's pretty well known.

Alan: that's the one I looked at as well.

Mm-hmm yeah, I was gonna use
them and I think I still am.

I'm using it as kind of a reference to
some of the stuff, but again, because

I have to be Japan first, legally I
basically had to use a Japanese one and

then have an English translation of that.

And I'm not comfortable with that.

I still there's there's questions that
I don't understand the answers to where

I stand on certain things, but from
everything I, you know, believe I'm doing.


But yeah, it's again, one of those things
it's just better to go with something

Mario: Yeah.


At least, I mean, they're not you
know, it's not, it's not like a lawyer

Alan: Right.

Mario: lawyer level kind of thing, but
it it's at least a more guided way of,

establishing something to get started
with, you know, at least and it's, and

it's not just, just, I'm not just doing
it by myself without any sort of guidance.

And so it's worth, you
know, paying for the service

Alan: It's not expensive.

I remember.

Mario: it's not that expensive.

And I really like it so far.

They they've really have distilled
the whole, you know, terms of use and

privacy policies and cookie policy and

Alan: Especially, yeah.

The California cookie policies are
and privacy policies are quite strong.


The laws are quite strong there.

So yeah.

Making sure that you just covered
for all of those, again, especially

since we're dealing with, you know,
storing people's valuable information

and you're recording them as well.

So yeah.

It's better to cover your bases
and make sure you're in the right.

Just cuz you don't wanna
screw with this stuff, right?

Mario: Yeah.


The, the nature of the product
is such that, you know, we're

recording the likeness of people,
their voices and their image.

And, and so it's you know, it's, I,
yeah, like you said, I don't want to get,

get it wrong and, and as soon as I can,
I'm gonna run it by a lawyer, but for

now I'm just using the iUbenda service
and I think that'll be fine for now.

And it's, it's really easy to use.

Very helpful.

Just a lot of just point and click,

Alan: yeah, exactly.

It's just like knowledge based
thing go through, is it, this is it.

This is it.


And then it's like, here's your policies.

Oh, nice.

and you can just link to
them directly on their site.


So you don't even have to worry
about hosting it and things.


And then if there's any changes legally,
they let you know again, it's it.

It's fine.

If you know where you stand right
now, but things change, then it's

better to be safe than sorry.


Mario: Yeah.


And I like that you can embed
it on your site, but it's

still linked to their system.

So if you update anything, it just gets
updated automatically on, your site.

So very

Alan: Nice.


Mario: So, yeah, so that's what I've
been working on and going forward

for the you know, I don't know, a
couple of weeks or so I'm just gonna

be focusing on that sort of thing.

I'm also updating the marketing website
to reflect the changes in the product and

all of this stuff, the terms of use and,

Alan: Cool.

Mario: and privacy policy and all
that just gearing up to a launch soon.

Also working on figuring out pricing,

Alan: yeah.

So what, what what's, what's
your latest thinking on that?

Are you, do you got any further

Mario: Well, a little bit, not.

Alan: is the question as well.

Mario: Oh, I created an
account with Paddle also.

But since I don't have
my business entity formed

Alan: yeah, yeah,

Mario: it's kind of
like pending right now.

It's but I, I, I was so eager to get
started that I didn't wanna wait.

So I created an account with them
and right now it's like, you know,

it's, it's halfway there cuz I
don't have all the information

Alan: Yeah.


They have the sandbox sandbox as well.

So if you, if you really wanted to
play around with the, the billing

stuff, the sandbox is, is good.

Mario: Hmm, nice.

Alan: Have you figured out what numbers
you're going to actually charge?

Mario: so the numbers I don't have
yet but I, have figured out that

I'm not gonna have any free plans
credit card up front and possibly.

Well, not possibly, I will have a, at
least like a seven day trial period.

Alan: makes sense.


Mario: might not be based
on number of days like that.

It might be based on a, a number of
minutes that you can use the product with,

you know, number of it so you can record

Alan: true.

I mean, you could always
have like a, yeah, like a 30

minute session or something,

Mario: something like that.


Alan: That makes sense.

Mario: So, but the only, the only problem
with that is that that can extend things

because if they don't use it up, they,
you know, they could, it could go on for

who knows how long until they use that up.

Alan: I mean,

Mario: but instead, if I say
like, you know, seven day trial,

Alan: Hmm.

Mario: Then that, you know,

Alan: They could record a
lot of audio in seven days.

So, so you kind of don't wanna,
you, you wanna actually, I mean, I

guess what you could do is create
an additional subscription plan.

That is like a limited one that is hidden
from your normal subscription list.

But when you join the trial
drops you into that, unless they

choose a higher plan, right.

Something like that.

Mario: So it would be like

Alan: You can have trial plan
effectively that is cuz Paddle.

So cuz you you've got this strange thing
cuz you want to, so what I'm doing is

not taking credit card up front which
means that my trial is out of Paddle.

So it's basically just creating account
and using the site just after it says,

oh, so 14 days it says you can't use
it anymore unless you select a plan.

But you have the option on Paddle
of saying what's your trial period.

And you can say seven days.

I'm just wondering if there's because
you don't wanna switch plans either.

Do you cuz that you, that
would require their permission?

Mario: Right, Right.

So maybe what I could do is seven,
seven, you know, like, like they

do with cars, with a car warranty.

Alan: right.



Mario: days or 30 minutes
recording, whatever comes, whichever

Alan: Oh, right.

Whichever comes first.



That's true.



Basically that, that
would, that would do it.

Wouldn't it.

So you'd have to manage that, obviously
internal yourself, but unless they yeah,

because I'm trying to think the data
you get back from Paddles tells you

if they're in a trial period or not.

But it obviously, if they subscribe
to a higher yeah, because you're

not gonna put the subscription
plan straight away, are you right?

They'll just put in a credit
card, get into the trial plan.

So, so actually you could do have an
additional trial plan that's hidden.

So when they join, they join the
trial plan, which is, you know, you

can track and say, okay, this is
a, and then when they exceed that,

you say, okay, you need to upgrade
your plan to one of these other two.

Mario: mm-hmm

Alan: but obviously that's still a
bit complicated because you they,

they could abuse the system within
seven days quite heavily, right.

Mario: Yeah, exactly.

That's the problem

Alan: the, the, the easy way is don't
have a trial to start off with just

give you by yourself a little bit of
time, rather than trying to solve this.

Like before you launch launch with just
same, you know, full money back, if you're

not happy, you know, complete refund.

And that would put that off to another
day, because I think that's gonna be

complicated to manage, or at least
more complicated than you should be

dealing with to get this thing launched.

Mario: Yeah,

Alan: And plus it, it, you're not
even sure exactly what it should be.


You might say, ah, you know, maybe
I can afford to give them, you know,

more than 30 minutes or maybe it
should be a two week period because

people aren't using it straight away.

They've got, you know, something
planned within the future.

So just forget that and just say,
you know, you've gotta full money

back with a, in the first month
we, you know, you can just complain

and we'll just full money back.

You can delete their
recordings, you save your space.

They get their money back.

No one problem.

So make that clear and I think you'd
save yourself a whole lot of problems.

Mario: yeah, that's a good suggestion.


that's really good.

Thanks for that.

Alan: it's complicated.

I mean, having been through this process
of just writing subscription sales stuff,

myself, it, it seems like, well, if people
pay, then I bump their subscription and

it's fine, but there's so many edge cases
in terms of, you know, like you, you

bill them on the same date every month.


You know, if they join on the eighth,
then you bill them the next eighth.

And just being able to knowing that
this is when you bill them, this is

what they're allowed to do, but then
they've canceled on the 10th, which

means you build them still they're
within their paid period, but you have

to cancel, you know, the next seventh
and how much do they use of that?

There's so many little things that you,
you, oh God, I've gotta deal with that.

and adding this complication
feels like something you don't

wanna deal with right now.

Mario: and, and that's
yeah, yeah, for sure.

And that's something that you
have to deal on your end, right?

You have to add that
logic to, to your app,

Alan: I mean, yeah, because I mean,
either they can use your system

or they can't right in theory, but
what, when can they use it too?

You know, if somebody cancels it's up to
you, whether they get a refund or whether

they go through to the next billing
period, if they're on an annual billing

cycle, maybe you do, you, you, you want to
cancel now and give them their money back.

But again, that's, you've
gotta deal with that somehow.

And each one of these things
is an additional bit logic

that you have to keep track of.

And yeah, it's, it's way more
complicated than what you first think

Mario: Yeah, yeah, no, I, I can

Alan: This is also influencing like how
I think about billing going forward in

general, just because, you know, thinking,
oh yeah, I'll have three price plans.

That's no problem.

Or I'll do metered billing
and you know, you it's, every

single option has complications.

Mario: Mm-hmm

Alan: so anything you can do to
chop off an option is, is good.

So that's my recommendation of the day.

Mario: Yeah, no, that's,
golden right there.

I, I yeah, appreciate that.

Alan: I mean, giving a
refund is no, no big deal.


You just click, cancel and refund and
you know, that's it, you might, even,

if you take a, you know, a fee hit on
the credit card you know, whatever, it's

only gonna be, you know, small amount.

And you know, you've already paid
for the hosting, so yeah, you lose on

it, but it's way easier than spending
a few days or weeks coding this.

Mario: yeah.

And trying to figure that out and
what if it's, you know, not right.

And then it gets all complicated and yeah,
I can get it's that's a big headache, so

Alan: And again, I think you'll find
most people will be like, I just,

I, I mean, I, I've never asked for a
refund for anything, you know, like

software wise, if it's not right for
me, I'll cancel and take it as a hit.

Oh, I paid for it for a month.

It's not right.

I cancel it.

You know, it's kind of just an
acknowledgement that it's not working

out and you know what, you, it's not
like your monthly fee is gonna to be, you

know, hundreds or thousands of dollars.


So, you know, it's, it's just
the cost of doing what you do.

You know, people pay for stuff,

Mario: No, that sounds good.

That sounds great.

So it'll be no free plan
credit card upfront?

no real trial period.

just the three I'm thinking
about three plans, three tiers.

I thought just two, but I
think three would be good to

have like that middle one.

That's like the most popular right?


Alan: The unrealistic huge one, which
nobody's gonna buy or if they do yay.

Mario: yeah.

Alan: the small one, which a bunch
of people probably get, cuz they're

really don't want to pay for it,
but I guess I have to, and then this

middle one, which hopefully like,
well that sounds like a good value.

Mario: Yeah.


Like right down the middle, you know?

I anticipate that some people that record
very occasionally as well, you know,

might just want something that's small,
like a small tear, you know, small plan

Alan: It's interesting.

We related to that, and we are one of
the projects I'm involved with we're

starting a podcast of the other people are
starting a podcast, but they're using a

podcast production person I guess agency
but it's a person who will effectively

manage the the, the, I don't wanna say
technical, but the we're, our people

are recording, doing the interviews.

The other person is effectively doing the
editing the show notes, the publishing,

the and, and also set up the the, the
technical stuff for the recording.

So it,

Mario: So they're doing
all the production stuff

Alan: Okay.

Basically, yeah.

Production, I guess that's it.

But pre-production, and postproduction in
terms of getting the, the recording right.

And then editing it and dealing with
what transistor does you know, for, in

terms of publishing, you know, editing
the show notes, things like that.

So it's interesting that, you know,
that, that, that kind of person it

could be very nice plan for you, right?

That's almost like that top, top tier,
you know, agency plan that, you know, that

they're producing multiple, but they're
producing podcasts for multiple clients.

And some way of effectively managing that.

And, you know, they just
say, here's your URL for you?

Here's your URL for you?

You know, hit record when
you're ready to start.

And I, they get the, you know,
they get the stuff ready sync.

Mario: Exactly.


Alan: so that could be a nice,
nice kind of client for you.



Mario: That, that, that would
be, but it would require more

features than what I have now.

Cuz I actually had a someone contact
me about, they were interested in

Fusioncast, but they wanted to have
a feature that some other services

have it services that are out there
similar to Fusioncast and they have

this I think they call it producer mode
where you join as a, as a producer.

And so you technically, you are part
of, of the session, but You're not

there, but you, you can, you can
interact with people if you need to.

And, and then you have options.

That no one else

Alan: Mm

Mario: as the producer,

Alan: you could do the, start, the

recording and things like that.

You could mute people, I
guess, potentially, and

Mario: yeah.

There's like all these little, you
know, different features that the

producer mode would, would have to have.

I'm not sure exactly how, you
know, like what, what it entails.

Cause I haven't really looked into it
cuz that's something for this future.

I, I, you know, I, I'm
not, I'm trying not to

Alan: No, I know

Mario: that stuff now, so, so yeah.

So I've, I've I agree with you.

That would be a really
good channel right there.

That kind of

Alan: cause the, I mean, just, you
know, from everything that I'm, you

know, hearing in the feedback we're
getting from just talking to people

about out this, it's, it's really
kicking off just in terms of the

number of people that are wanting.

I mean, you know, I, you, you
think, oh my God, there's too many

podcasts it's already over saturated.

And then you realize the amount of
people that are wanting to get into it.

And, and interestingly, you know, pay for
them to be made, you know, the, the actual

podcast production service, this industry
seems to be really growing rapidly.

So, you know, that's definitely a good.

Potential future think.


Mario: yeah,

Alan: and I, I don't think,
you know what you've got.

I don't think there's, there's
crazy amount, you know, even the,

for a first version, you wouldn't
have to add all of that at first.

It's just a case of like, somebody sets
it up and gets the recordings back.


A lot of the time they, they're
not gonna be present because,

you know, they're, they just get
the files back when they're done.

But definitely that's, that'd be nice
because you've got the feature to

have multiple podcasts for yourself.


So you can create multiple.

So you already got a lot
of those features already.


Mario: And the, the team's
feature is, is there underneath,

Alan: remember we talked about that.

Mario: Yeah.

With, with that.

in mind, it's just, I need to surface
it at some point and, and tie all the

loose ends and make it all, you know
just wire it up the bones are there,

you know, under, under the hood.

So yeah, I can't wait to get to that,
point cuz that's something that nobody

Alan: know what you have to do.

You have to launch version one first.

Mario: I know

Alan: this is, this is my, my segment
for harassing you about launching, right.

Mario: I'm trying to get there.

Alan: I know

Mario: no, but I, I am feeling pretty
confident now and, and I'm pretty

happy with how it's working and,
I I think it's mature enough that

I can feel confident launching and

Alan: should.

It's it's really good.

You know, it's It's ready.

It's just, you gotta get that past, that
final, you know, finishing line now.

and then that's a rather the starting line

Mario: yeah, right.

hopefully it's it scales that's,
that's the next thing that I need to,

Alan: well,

Mario: that I need to get a, a proof of
that, the product performing at scale.

And, I can't do that unless I launch

Alan: users.

Yeah, exactly.

Mario: a lot of users using it.


So it's like a catch 22 there,
but also I well I think that's it.

I'm gonna leave the
rest for the next time.

So that to give you a chance to share and

Alan: the big thing here was I
mentioned last time that I was

building a, an iOS slash Android app.

That's just, you know, a
wrapper around the application.

So I published the Android
version and the client has

downloaded it and playing with it.

So it, up until now, it was on the
Android internal test system which

was a bit confusing to get set up
just because I've never touched the.

I don't know, Android at all, and I
know the place to process even less.

But it was very straightforward.

Once I kind of figured it
out the, and a whole lot less

complicated than the iOS system.

That's for sure.

In terms of just being able to, you know,
for, for getting the approval process for

Google took like two days I forgot to give
them a completely forgot to give 'em a

login for this so that they could test it.

But when it was like, oh yeah, I
completely forgot to enter that.

Filled it in.

And it was like three hours later.

It got approved.

So yeah, compared to our iOS, which
I've waited weeks for in the past

It was very easy and just, you
know, publishing updates just, you

know, editing the notes, being able
to add translations for the notes.

The interface is, is very googlely,
but it's very understandable.

And yeah, it's, it's seems fine.

So I'm kind of cheating on using
expo for, because it's react native.

An expo gives you a bunch of like,
Build tools and freebies out the box.

And it just because I'm not really
pushing the app, it's nothing complicated.

It's, you know, it's literally a wraper
around a web view that just checks.

If you've got network, you know,
does a splash screen intercepts URLs,

if it needs to open into a browser
or open within the application.

So the there's a few, you know,
things that it just checks for,

but it's, it's really simple.

But the key for the client is that
it gives them an application icon

and a thing to tell a staff to say,
go and download DotPlan from the

app store or play store, sorry.

And use your mobile login and that's it.

So they can do their timecard stuff.

Everything like, like that, it.

That that was their key thing.

It's like, you know, we can't
spend time explaining to people

how to do this on their phone.

They just need to, you
know, go and download it.

They know how to install apps.

They don't know how to deal with,
you know, PWAs or anything like that.

That's just confusing for them.

So I can understand that, you know, in
theory this should just be a PWA, right.

It should just be an, a webpage that
they can install on their phone, but the,

you know, we know that you can do that
and we know the process and most people

don't, and it's still confusing for them.

So just being able to tell their staff
to go and download it from the app store.

No problem, they can do that.

So that required a few interesting
things like, you know, making a, I made

a different sign up a sign in screen set
of signing screens for the mobile app.

Just so it, it formatted better.

It gives like an intro page, you know,
you click through and the, it it's,

it's less web and more app looking.

So I did that, but yeah, that, that
kind of went reasonably smoothly so far.

There's, there's a few things I want
to improve with the app, but it's

rechecking for when your network
comes back, it doesn't do very well.

Mario: Mm.


Alan: I need to, you know,
relook at it things like

Mario: And do you mean like
when the, device goes to

sleep or something like that.

Alan: Yeah.

Basically, if you lose your network
and then network comes back, the

app goes, oh, there's no network.

And then when the app network comes
back, it's like, Still no network.

And you're like, no, you've
gotta, you've got network.

Now do something.


So I think my code checking the
network availability it needs.

I need to debug that, but I
mean, it works 99% of the time.

It's just a few cases where
things got a bit weird.

So just edge cases I need to fix.

But the fact that's it's working
and, you know, they could, you

know, do this for that client.

It it's good start.

So that was an interesting process.

And I added a it was also kind
of a request from them, but

something I intended to do anyway.

So it was like just meant it got bumped up
the the priority list a little bit which

is when you log ti, this, this is related
to the time tracking feature of it.

It gives you, you know, your.

Timecards a list of all of the times
you've checked in and checked out.

But also now gives an overview
of how many hours per project you

were checked in on which, because
of the way they're using it.

And just in general,
it's, it's interesting.

It's, it's both interesting.

And to some clients essential to know
those numbers straight off, right?

So whenever you see timecards or however
you filter them, if you filter them by

project or by user or by, you know, date
range, however it'll show the total hours

per project and the total hours total for
all of those, both on the, on the web.

And then if you export to Excel,
it includes on, on there as well.

So, so that was it.

It's one of those things that, yeah,
it's obvious and it should be there,

but, you know, I haven't done it but
it's also one of those things that

it's, so I'm using Elixir for this.


And you know, I, I'm not super
experienced at Elixir it's I, I

started Elixir or even function
functional programming in general,

you know, I've done Ruby for so long.

Using Elixir was like,
oh, this looks similar.

It's just a little bit
different and then, you know,

for normal stuff, it is right.

Normal, just, you know, putting stuff
from the database and putting on the

web page, you know, just general stuff

Mario: It's just basic CRUD stuff

Alan: Yeah, exactly.

That that's, you know,
it kinda looks very Ruby.

Then certain things like just being
able to and how I deal with this, you

know, I've got all of these things.

I pull 'em in all, in, all in, from the
database anyway in order to put them on

the screen how do I kind of calculate
totals and, you know, reduce these and,

you know, map, reduce stuff and things
just for creating values out of this data.

Again, in Ruby, I, I know how to do it,
but just thinking slightly differently,

functionally it, it was, you know, it's
always a good learning experience, so

it's kind of like, ah, you know, I have to
learn something new, which is always fun.

So I, I kind of feel my Elixir-ism getting
are just being able to do idiomatic,

Elixir getting better all the time, just
cuz it's I'm, I'm kind of outside of

the putting stuff on a page there's, you
know, especially when creating these Excel

sheets for, you know, for the, the export.

It's like, just like here's load of
data, you know, trying to transform it

and kind of map it to different things.

It's it's straightforward enough, but
it's stuff I hadn't done before in Elixir.

So it was it is interesting and a
good, good experience to learn that.

So yeah, that's, that's been keeping
me busy I really is really nice.

I it it's cuz I said before my, my
normal, the paying day job is Ruby.

And feels so lightweight.

When, after doing a day of Ruby,
you know, spending a few hours

doing both LiveView and Elixir, it
just feels so easy to do things.

And I mean, the, the ridiculous thing
is Ruby's, you know, especially Rails

has this reputation for just being
able to do things really quickly.


You know, it's got so much
functionality baked in.

But I now find myself being able to do
it in Elixir quicker and with less fuss.

Even though there's much less of it,
you know, there's less framework,

there's less language features.

It still feels like it's just lighter.

So I'm really, really enjoying it.

And I'm glad I chose to, to
use Elixir and Phoenix for this

it's it's the right choice.

Mario: that's awesome.


Yeah, for sure.


One of my criteria is when I decide
to work on, any project is whether

I'm gonna be learning something new,
you know, and, and you know, how they,

the advice, the general advice is that
you should stick to what you know, and

the stack that, you know, because that
that's gonna help you, get there faster

and, and so on, which is totally valid.

And I, agree a hundred percent, but at the
same time it's good to learn new things.

So if there's any possibility
to learn something new, right?

It's it's even better.

Alan: I mean, yeah, totally.

I mean, you know, in, by every
single, you know, bit of advice be

that I should not have done this
in Elixir and LiveView, right.

Just because, you know,
I know Rails so well.

And I, especially, you know, Rails
recently has, you know, had some

pretty interesting improvements
with their what do they call it?

Hot wire stuff.

So, you know, enable to be doing
more interactive pages and things,

but I just find the, the model of
live view to be better for what I,

you know, how I expect it to work.

And just the end result
feels better to me.

And it's it.

I, I still, you know, rails pays my rent

Mario: Yeah,

Alan: and has done for
a very, very long time.

So I'm not dinging it at all.

Mario: Yeah, yeah.


Alan: for, and again, my, my choice for
the client, it was, it was up to me.

But for the client, there's, there's
no way I would push Elixir on them

just because I it's still, you know,
there's not many people know it.


And knowing that we would essentially
have to employ others for short periods

of time, you know, get freelancers on it,
get contracts on it, knowing that that

was a prerequisite, there's no way I'd.

And especially since I didn't know
it well either , it'd be like, Hey,

let's do this thing that none of us
know that's probably not a good idea.

So absolutely in theory, I
should have just stuck with

rails, but I'm glad I didn't and

Mario: yeah.

But then you wouldn't know
of that, that you now know,

Alan: I mean, yeah, this is how I learn.


And this is how I maintain some form of
sanity working in this business, right.

Is by, by learning and doing new stuff.

If I was just doing the same
thing every day, I'd go crazy

Mario: It just gets boring
and unmotivating, Right.

Alan: And, you know, I enjoy the, the,
the constant of being outta my depth.


You know, which feels like every
day, I'm like, what I'm doing.

Mario: Yeah.

Tell me about it.

building this thing.

It's it's been like, oh man.

Sometimes I, if I had known how
challenging it was gonna be, I

probably would've never started, but it
started as a, as a little experiment.

Oh, let me see if I can get
video camera on the browser.

And it was like, oh cool.

I get the, the camera video
on the browser looks great.

Alan: I remember when you

Mario: all the million

Alan: I was like, oh, add all
projects, which, you know, you

could have chose, you picked a
real problem, difficult one yeah.

I mean, it's again, in hindsight, you
know, I, I think we've said before, you

know, my project, I, I it's aimed too big.

It's, it's difficult to compete with,
you know, that type of product in that

scale of a, you know, that position is
kind of difficult to aim for when you're,

you know, it we're a single person.


You know, as opposed to selling
to a a more niche or smaller

crowd it's, it's much easier to be
much more easier to be targeted.

But Hey, you know, you live and learn
and it's, it's all learning experience.

I, I, I find it difficult to
just accept somebody else's.

Tellings teachings, you
know, just, oh yeah.


They said this, I should do that.

I, that doesn't work for me.

I'd rather, you know, suffer
through it and learn how just

the pains by doing it myself.

And it's, I mean, same with coding.


You know, I could read a a million,
you know, textbooks or examples, and

then the first line of code you write,

you're like, I don't, you know, I don't
feel comfortable with this, but by

suffering and basically figuring it
all out yourself by building a project.

I, you know, you, you're constantly
pushing yourself and learning, and I

say, that's what keeps me somewhat sane.

Mario: Yeah,


And, and the other thing is these projects
if they're not the main thing that you

are hoping to make a living out of at
least for now, if it it's a side project,

so there can be an opportunity to learn
something new because you don't yeah,

you want to get there as soon as you can,
or, you know, use the stack that, you

know, so that you can get there faster.

But you have your own, your main job.

And then this is just a side project.

And you wanna be learning your
stuff at the same time then?

Why not?


Alan: I mean, if it was a case, if I
didn't have any other source of income

and I needed to start earning money
next week, desperately, then I might

have thought differently about it.


Mario: Yeah, exactly.

Alan: But at the same time, you know,
that's again, I probably wouldn't be

building a SaaS, if that was my problem.


Just because the, the ramp up
speed is much, you know, it be have

to be something I can sell now.


Rather than, yeah.

I've gotta build it.

Mario: yeah.


More like a, an info product
or something like that.


Alan: But again, so it's but you know,
it's a learning process and , I'm glad I

did it the way I did some kind of . Oh,
so the one thing I've gotta do this week

is I mentioned the, the co-working space
rather the startup hub that I've I'm a

member of they want to record a me doing
a pitch for my product, like a 10 minute

pitch that they can send to companies
that we can work through together.

So that they've obviously have affiliated
our have contacts within huge number of

companies in the city so they're like,
okay, if you can record a pitch you know,

we can put some titles on for Japanese.

I've got Japanese slides as well.

They want to send it to, we
can pick like 10 companies that

we can start to approach with.

And so they, they want me
to record that this week.

So I have to have to put
my pitch head on again,

Mario: Nice.

Alan: only to a video, but it's
still, it's kind of just getting

in that frame of mind of like

Mario: oh, yeah,

Alan: it's have to

Mario: yeah, yeah.

Alan: that mindset again.

Mario: Yep.


And how long, how long
is this supposed to be

Alan: 10 minutes.

Mario: 10 minutes.


Alan: So not too bad, but especially
since I know the kind of customers,

I mean, you know, that they want
to, to go through with me, for us

to pick who we want to send it to.

You know, I can kind of tailor the
picture a little bit towards those.

Again, you know, they'll be
Japanese companies, so I know which

aspects of my product work better
for them than internationally.

So I'm gonna try and you know, shape it
into something that, that works for them.

So that's my, my task this week as well.

Mario: Nice.


And would you, I guess you
could qualify that as kind of

Alan: It's marketing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.


It's sales marketing.

Mario: Yeah.


There you go.


Alan: You go do something

Mario: Yeah.

Well, I was gonna ask you if you've
had a chance to do more in that

Alan: sadly.


Yeah, that, that was just getting
this, this Android app out to

is, was kind of priority there.

And these other changes just cuz
they're, they're switching over

from their existing systems to
this for the time tracking stuff.


Very soon.

So it was like, okay, I wanna
make sure that they that

they don't have any problems.

So that was the immediate
priority for them.

but that's done.

So now I can switch to
marketing mode for a little bit.


Mario: Yeah.


Alan: to

Mario: Yeah.


That's awesome.

Well, good luck with your presentation
and yeah, I'm sure you'll, you'll be good.


Alan: I'll

Mario: it out of the park.


Alan: I dunno, I it's I enjoy doing
it, but it it's still I, I dunno.

It's like anything, you know, you
whenever you do something yourself and

you try and compare it to other people,
it's like, oh God, I'm so bad at this.

You know, especially public speaking,
I enjoy it, but I, I don't know how

it's really difficult to measure
yourself against how other people do it.

But I'll do my best and it's,
it's, it's kind of fun to

do, so we'll see how it goes

Mario: yeah, yeah.

You'll be fine.

Alan: oh yeah.

Mario: saw the other one you.

did the other day and I mean a while

Alan: Yeah.

Mario: and it was good.

It was good.


Alan: So let's see, has that need
just arrange your time this week

for that, but that's about it.

Mario: Cool.

All right.

So should we wrap it up here?

Do you have anything else?

Alan: Yep.

Think that's me.

Mario: All right, cool.

we'll see you in a couple of weeks

Alan: Yes.

And yeah.

I want to hear all about
how your launch went.

Mario: yeah, I, I know, right.

I hope

Alan: you're gonna surprise me
one day and say actually, yeah.

Mario: Yeah.

hopefully I have the, the
business entity formed by then.

Alan: Yes, exactly.

Mario: Sorry, trying to keep my dog
from making too much noise here.

he's like getting restless

Alan: Yeah, I was gonna say he is
like, stop talking, play with me.

Mario: Yeah.


Alan: well, I think that's, that's a
good good reason to, to finish that.

Mario: All right.




And your day is just, just
getting started, right?

So you probably get, need to get
some work done and, and stuff.

I'm wrapping up my day here.

And so Yeah.

See you.

In a couple of

Alan: couple of weeks, cheer

Mario: All right, Alan.

It was great as always, take care

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