Alan: There we go local
regardless in progress

Mario: Huh?

all right, We'll have to,
I'll have to figure that out.

Alan: Start again.

So when you.

implement Paddle's checkout
process, there's two main options.

First, you can either do a, a product,
which is like a, you know, delivering a

license or a piece of software URL or,
something or a subscription service.

And then when you do subscription, you
can you create a catalog of subscription.

Which each one becomes a different Paddle
like service that you get the ID for.

And so you can match things up and, you
know, handle restrictions or limitations

on your end so that you can then set a.

A price for each of you can either
just say one price in US and then

US dollar, and then, you know, auto
localize that, or you can set specific

prices for like me, for instance, for
Japan, I want a round number in Yen.

So I override the the.

Price to be something around number
that matches kind of with the dollar.

And then when you do the, to actually
implement the checkout itself

on your app, you have there's,
there's two things you have to do.

First of all, there's the actual purchase
taking the card details and things,

and then there's the the webhook side.

So you get a bunch of data back when
they start subscribing, or you can

choose which webhook events to change.

So if they like, if a billing payment
has completed our payments failed, or

if they've changed their email address.

So they've canceled or any, all
of these things are if a card

subscription failed, things like that.

So you can choose all of these webhooks.

And so you get like a you know,
payload back and there's a simulator.

So you can simulate all
of these within there.

So to get to that point, you have to
actually collect the payment details.

So there's two options.

There's either a a JavaScript one,
which does an overlay or there's

an inline one, which effectively
gives you a, a customizable.

form, which is like on a separate page.

So to make it just simple and
less work doing the I'm just

doing the JavaScript overlay one.

So it just produces like a a
modal on top of your page and

it just works really easily.

Getting that bit is fine.

I'm just having to now deal with all of
the different webhook Things that matter.

Right.

So a lot of them I'm like, I don't
care if they're if they for instance

change their address or something.

That doesn't matter to me, but if they
cancel subscription, that matters to me.

Or even when a payment if a payment fails,
do I tell them in my UI, they'll probably

get an email from Paddle anyway, but also
I should probably tell them in my UI also.

Right.

So how do I update that?

So that'd be the.

The whole model locally in your
applications suddenly expands a

bit because it's like, well, what
different states do I need to show?

You know, I showed them that last
billing data and then next billing date.

So, you know, if I tell them, you
know, your active subscription, but

you'll be next charged next Tuesday.

It, it's just another thing
to take care of and to show.

And so it's takes a little
bit it getting it working.

Paid and it's you get the thing back
and you can do something different,

you know, increase the number of
users or whatever that is easy.

And then there's just all of these
like extra bits, which it's kind of

one of those that there's there's
there's the obvious things like

you need to store a cancel URL.

So if they want to cancel, they
have to go to Paddle associate

you, they give you a URL.

They click on that.

They get redirected to Paddle where
they canceled their subscription, or

if they need to change their billing.

So you get, they send you these URLs as
part of the web of you've got to store

those and then put those in your eyes.

So that's like a

Mario: Are those accounts specific or?

Alan: so those are account specific.

Yes.

So if you're a subscriber
to my thing and you want to

cancel, I store, the cancel URL.

You click the cancel, I send you there.

And they cancel on Paddle.

So it's the I guess it's to do with all
of the because they control the billing

and they are the I was a seller of record.

I forget the actual term of it.

Right.

Mario: So.

yeah.

That's what it's

Alan: Yeah.

So, because I don't know anything
about the the, the users details

effectively, but they send me their
email address as part of the payload.

But apart from that, anything to do
with billing, I know nothing about apart

from they work, they paid for something,
they paid this amount for a thing.

So to, in order to complete that,
like canceling out, changing the

so if they want to upgrade or
downgrade their subscription plan,

also, I have to do the same thing.

Bounce them back to Paddle
in order to do that.

Because I can't know anything
about their billing, right?

So it's there's a little bit of
stuff which if you're doing, if

you're using Stripe, I believe
it's a more direct approach way.

You know, it's like, I bill you,
you get this I get this back.

I do things is it's a direct
kind of thing with you and the

the person buying the thing.

Whereas Paddle is a little bit of this.

You know, going around the houses
a little bit because I send

them that they changed it there.

I get to web put back.

And then they come back to me.

So there's, there's a little bit
of more of a round trip involved,

but it's straightforward enough.

I mean, it's easy enough.

And I say, I think it's worth doing for
this stage just because I don't have to

then worry about the whole tax thing.

Mario: How are you finding
their API, their documentation?

Alan: It's fine.

I mean, it's.

There's a few annoyances
that you have to kind of read

between the lines a little bit.

And the biggest annoyance is that there
Using API docs should not be a single

page web, just make it static, HTML
document that I can copy and paste from.

So you can't co copy and paste
from their API document it

as in you can't select text.

And, and I'm like, okay, you've given
me a webhook within your documentation.

with keys tokenized keywords that
I'm supposed to check on yet.

I can't copy and paste that keyword and
it's like, it's really annoying stuff.

I just wish

Mario: oh yeah.

Yeah.

Alan: this is where my you know, get
kind of annoyed with single page web apps

when there really isn't any need for it.

It's a HTML document.

It's a text page.

Mario: Yeah.

It's it's yeah, it's
just it's documentation.

It should be just plain HTML.

Alan: Yeah.

So th there's there's little
frustrations like that.

And it does feel like it feels
like the certain areas that where

obviously, I guess it's, so I don't
always that a smaller company.

I don't know.

They seem to be reasonably
big, but I guess, compared to

Stripe, anything small, right.

That does seem bits, which.

They're finished, but they
don't feel fully fleshed out.

Yeah.

It feels like, you know, there's
still lots of things they're

doing they haven't done yet.

And there's bits, which is like,
this doesn't seem clear and obviously

there's a there's a lack of Scale
of support in terms of ecosystem.

So like for instance, those, there's
no library for Alexa for doing it,

but I mean, it's simply enough, right?

I mean, it's, it's me sending a you
know, a payload to get some JavaScript

to do something, and it's receiving
a webhook that I have to verify the

signature with just usual crypto stuff.

So it's simple enough, but also you're
kind of on your own with regards to.

There's the data build a
subscription service around it.

So it's but it's fine.

I mean, again, the, the
convenience of once it's done,

I won't have to think about it.

Right.

So and you know, even if I was
doing this with Stripe, I'd

still have the same kind of.

Things with regards to, you know,
messaging in the billing section and

you know, when, how do you cancel and
how do you, it's all gotta be that,

and this is slightly easier, I guess.

So it's fine.

Yeah.

I, no, no real noise is just
something to kind of work through it.

Mario: Yeah, I've been thinking about it.

And I think I'll follow you
in trying out Paddle it's.

It's gonna save a lot of headaches with
you know, taxes and all that stuff.

Alan: They also have a
metered option as well.

I believe I didn't look into it because
it's I'm not doing it, but if you're doing

like you number of minutes or something
like that I believe you can do that.

So if I was to move to like per
seat seating, I think I can probably

implement it using that as well.

But I'm not going to do that
again for the first version.

I'm just going to go with a flat.

I'm think I'm going to do like two or
three levels, like up to 10 members up to

20, and then on limited or, you know, to
a few hundred or something, just to make

it clear there's different levels and then
to can get a feeling for whether I'm in

the right ballpark, just to kind of get
some idea of how it's how people use it.

Mario: Right, right.

Alan: Again, going for a per seat
billing at this stage feels like

adding more complications than I need.

So the other big thing is I've
been doing the 500 startups academy

thing, founder academy thing.

So,

Mario: Oh, nice.

How's that going?

Alan: Yeah, so it's kind of
interesting as I am, there's two

kind of main components to it.

There's so it's a four week course
bank And there's 50 companies.

Like half of them are in Japan.

The other half are
dotted around the world.

Quite a lot around Asia, a few in Europe.

And so there's a weekly.

Like video course on a particular topic.

And then at the end of that week they
have a effectively, a networking session

and a, an AMA with somebody either
that was teaching the cost of the video

course, or it, that, that related to
that they also work in that field.

So for instance, this week's was like SEO.

Last week's was sales and
marketing the previous week was.

Like growth, experiments and metrics and
how to add like what metrics to think

about and how to measure them and stuff.

So they've all been very there.

The SEO one probably is a little bit
Well, I can't, I guess it's still kind

of relevant, but I'm not in a position
to do much with that right now, apart

from, you know, get my first version of
the landing page up a newer version of

my landing page up, and then start to
think about how I can work with that,

to, to grow content and things, to to
improve the SEO of both the site and

all of the content I want to produce.

but the the previous week about like
both sales in terms of segmenting

gear, potential users and how to
target different users and the

value of different types of users.

So more than anything, I mean, this is
none of it is stuff that you couldn't, or

haven't already learned about either from,

reading stuff on the web or reading,
you know, all of the startup

books that you've probably got
the same as me or just YouTube.

I mean, a lot of the same people have
done very either the same people or

other experts on this area have done.

You know, you can see YouTube talks
about the same kind of topics.

So the data, the information is out there.

It's nothing radically new.

But effectively somebody's sitting you
down and say, The spelling it out and

then saying, now do some of this, like,
you know, there's exercises going through

it, like you know, working out like your
segments of your users, and then having

an AMA session with someone who is an
expert on this and being able to, you

know, it's, it's like a 90 minute session.

Basically them going through the
user at the audience questions.

Right.

So it it's very valuable.

It's been really valuable.

And just in terms of getting you to do
the work, which you've probably put off.

I mean, even just going through
that thing of well, okay.

Who are the, your target segments and
what's the value of each one and why are

you, you know, what kind of problems are
you solving for them and how do you talk

to them and how just looking at this
and then saying, okay, well, how do you

measure and analyze and optimize for this

metric for this, this sector the segment.

And so just going through that and
actually making you write this down

or think about it more than, yeah.

I kind of know what I'm supposed to do.

Right.

Has been incredibly valuable and it's made
me a lot more analytic about you know,

some of the stuff that I was thinking
of doing, I'm like I need to, you know,

reassess some of these things.

So it's, it's definitely been valuable.

I mean, absolutely been valuable.

And just the, some of the DMA sessions,
you know, these people are, you know,

they both either work at 500 as mentors
or they're, you know, related to

the, the 500 in the kind of network.

Yeah, just

sitting with them for, you know, 90
minutes on zoom has been just like, yeah.

It's like knowledge bomb.

It's been, I mean, I guess the, the
thing which has stood out partly for

me is that you can kind of see the,
you can see a pattern in almost like

the startup factory at work here.

Right.

I mean, I guess it's very American
centric, obviously, because, you know,

500 is, and the whole start-up as a,
as an industry is very America centric.

Right.

But you can almost through both of the,
both the course material and the sessions,

the AMA sessions themselves, you can
almost see the the recipe for a startup

as in it's very clear is that you, if you
look at any of the bigger or the more.

Becoming successful startups.

So not, not necessarily the Stripe or
the, you know, the, the, the unicorn

kind of companies, but the companies
which are raising, you know, a 10, 20

million are worried that, you know,
just in that stage where they're,

they're not you know a real startup
that they've graduated from that we're

making a product to, or actually growth.

And then when you see these courses,
you can almost see the recipe that

they followed to get to the point
where they are and what they're

implementing in order to grow further.

It's, it's a very clear I mean,
each case is different, but there's

that the patent is the same and the,
information that they're using to create.

the instructions to get there
follows this pattern perfectly.

And then, so it's kind of interesting
seeing the structure behind it all.

So it does definitely, I guess,
companies that have gone through

500 or YC or anything they're
going through the same course.

Right.

And they're implementing the same things
in a very similar way, just for the.

You know, th their own industry.

Yeah.

And you can start, certainly
see the patterns appearing

Mario: Well, that's good.

That's that's.

That's

Alan: well, the hope is then that
is you can reproduce this, right.

You know, if it's working for these
10 companies, but those things aren't

working for those 20, well, you do
the things which are working, right.

So you can obviously see these things
must work because these other companies

that are becoming successful and raising
more money on, you know, doing reasonably.

So yeah, I guess it's a case of like,
okay, take what's the things which are

obviously working for them and, you
know, reproduce some of those tactics.

Right.

So,

Mario: yeah, yeah.

Alan: it's been super interesting.

So yeah, this, this week is a SEO
and next week is oh, I forgot.

So that's why I that's next week.

I'd have to think about that next week,

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Alan: very oh, it's about fundraising.

Of course.

It's a, it's about basically pitching
and fundraising and stuff like that.

So again

Mario: last week, how many weeks is it?

Alan: it was four weeks.

Mario: Four weeks.

Okay.

Alan: So it definitely interesting.

And even if I don't, you know, necessarily
go looking for money, just knowing the

system and the process and the
expectations and what people are

doing is just helpful and very
interesting, useful to know.

Right.

So.

Mario: Yeah, for sure.

Knowledge is power.

So even, even if you don't go that
route, do you, it's always good to know.

And.

Yeah.

Even if you don't get investment in
that way you could, channel some of

that knowledge in your own way to
grow your company at the pace that you

want to grow it, you know, the, it
doesn't have to be all VC and all that

Alan: Right.

Right.

Exactly.

I mean, that's, that's certainly an option
and, you know, I it's never say never.

Right.

You know, there's there's, there's big
advantages to doing that depending on

what the type of company you want to grow.

Right.

So it's but again, just knowing.

Having this kind of knowledge dump
on you is, is really valuable.

So yeah, I'm, I'm really enjoying it and
it's, it's definitely been made me think

a lot about the, some of the strategies or
lack of strategies that I've been doing.

And just how you, you can almost,
you know, obviously it's, it's not

that simple, but you can almost.

Be more strategic about what
and how and who you are talking.

So, I mean, I guess this is a common
problem with you know, indie makers in

general, as we build what interests us or
what we see a small niche for rather than

the big picture of like you know, looking
at where exactly the valuable markets are.

So but again, it doesn't, you
don't have to necessarily do

exactly the same, but just.

Keeping these things in mind and
making, using the thing, which

you've, which are relevant to what
you're doing is incredibly valuable.

So,

Mario: yeah.

That's awesome.

Well hopefully it, you sounds like
you're, you're getting a lot of

out of this what is it called?

Course?

It's

Alan: Yeah.

It's a, is it 500 founders academy?

500 Kobe.

So yeah, Kobe city are basically.

Supporting it.

So there's a bunch of, you know,
networking and mentoring that they

are arranging as well as like a.

Together with them.

So, so kind of a joint venture
between 500 and Kobe, so

Mario: Nice.

Alan: So I had, I'll have an
excuse to go to Kobe city.

I've never, never been to that area.

Mario: There you go.

Alan: yeah, exactly what that looks like.

They have some fantastic so similar to
my city Fukoaka they are running a you

know, with the goal to, to encourage
startups and new They have a startup

visa system and a like a court that
the city like encourages and supports

small businesses in various ways.

Like they provide this startup hub.

So they've got you know, in the
same way we've got an old elementary

school that they've revamped
and it's now our startup center.

I have like a co-working space
there and things have subsidized

offices, Kobe doing the same, but.

Brand new fancy building.

So we've got like a cool
old historic building.

They've got a brand new fancy office,
so you see a different type ticket,

but I mean, they, they also help you.

If you're a foreigner and wants to start
a company in Japan start a startup,

then they can, they help arrange you
can get a visa to start a company here.

Even if you don't have
like a working visa.

There's.

Things that you can do to achieve that.

So both she be a city in Tokyo Kobe and
Fukuoka are running these, these schemes.

So it's, you know, Japan's got
a long way to go in terms of

entrepreneurship in digital space.

But they're trying, I mean, it's been
really good for me just in terms of,

helping arrange me you know, contacts
within the city mentorships you know,

things like the coworking space and
just that, you know, that there's a

lot that they try and do to encourage
and to support small businesses.

So, yeah, it's a nice thing
to have as good system.

Mario: That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well good luck with the rest of the
course and you're yeah, you're gonna

it's, like I said, sounds like you're
getting a lot of value out of it and yeah,

Alan: It's been interesting

Mario: take notes

Alan: yeah, exactly.

It's it's been interesting also seeing
just the variety of companies, because

it is a it's a founders academy that
they're also 500 are also running a thing

with IHG city, which is Growth to Japan.

So if you've got a successful product or
company abroad, they're basically running

a similar kind of cause, but different
target at basically bringing your company

to Japan and how to set up here, how to
grow and how to find your audience here.

As opposed to starting a company, you
know, you, you're not in the founding

stage, you're in the growth stage.

So that's a much smaller cohort.

It's like 10 companies.

Whereas I was at 50 And so it's obviously
different target is a slightly longer,

it's got obviously a very different focus.

Yeah, so they seem to be running
a few of these things and that's I

think they said they're going to their
planter run this founder's academy,

like twice a year or something.

And the growth one, I think that.

Once a year or something.

So yeah, it's all a
super, super interesting.

And,

Mario: That's awesome.

Alan: opportunity to, to
be just acquire knowledge.

Mario: Yeah.

Alan: got to put it into practice
now, which is easier, said than done.

Mario: This was free, right?

This, yeah.

Alan: Yep,

Mario: That's nice.

Alan: exactly.

I mean, obviously it also sets you up
in terms of just networking for, you

know, if I ever decided to try and join
another accelerator, there's just so many

people I've spoke to on that, that you
know, the network is expanding, right.

And just it's super useful to have
these contacts and and just say.

Mario: Cool.

Very cool.

Alan: Just going to put into practice now.

Mario: Yeah.

So, where are you at in terms of
the product and and launching, I

know you're integrating Paddle, so
you're getting ready for opening

it up for billing and stuff.

Do you, what are your plans?

As far as opening it up to
the public, open the gates or

Alan: Yeah.

As, as I said, there's no reason.

I mean, the product is.

This is why I was kind of giving
you a crap because it's, there's a

million things that are currently
I see as glaring problems with it.

Right.

But at the same time, I also have people
using it daily and they finding it useful.

So amongst those beta testers, it's
like, well, if they're finding it useful,

then other people probably will too.

Right.

So I kind of have to get to
the point where, you know, I

stop trying to fiddle with it.

And a lot of the things I want
to do now are bigger things.

There's lots of smaller things that I can
improve, but there's, there's just bigger

feature sets that I want to work on.

And if I start working on those

now I'll never launch.

Right.

So it's like, okay, I've got to draw
a line in the sand with it's like,

it's useful to people right now.

So therefore launch and, you know,
I'll go in with a pretty, you know,

straightforward pricing system.

So it's like, you know, just it's
this and it's VO can use it for,

you know, 10 say I'm thinking of.

20 or 10 30 and, you know, hundreds
of something like that, just to

make it an affordable and easy
kind of price point, almost like

a No, no, no real excuse not to.

If you find it useful not to pay,
if you find it useful, right.

Again, just to, to help understand the
users, the how the product fits and

what to focus on next, things like that.

So I said, Forcing myself to to
get it at the end of the month

about whether we'll hit that.

I don't know, but as soon as
close to that as possible.

And then just say I'm going to have
a either a two week or a, I think a

two week free sign up without a credit
card and then hit the the paywall.

I thought about doing.

Credit card first.

So that's something Paddle
supports as well as you can enable

a trial period within Paddle.

So I can basically say like 14 day trial.

But that way they have to enter
the credit card first and then

on day 15, they get billed.

But so the other, the other way is
you handle the trial and then after

14 days, I say, you need to pay and
they send them to Paddle for billing.

I can understand both obviously
the, you know, the, the internet

wisdom, conventional wisdom is
you take credit card upfront.

And if you look at anybody on like,
you know, MegaMaker, or MicroComp full,

probably swear by taking credit card
data up front and doing the trial and

then auto bill after two weeks, unless
they cancel I feel that I dunno, I just,

as somebody as a user, I hate that.

And then I can completely
understand the reasons for doing

it and it makes perfect sense.

But at the same time, if I can't
try out a product without entering

a credit card, I get kind of.

Unless it's some, I mean, Transistor,
I guess is the one, which was like

a, I know exactly what that does
and if you need it, you pay for it.

Whereas it feels like this is almost
like a, let me understand the product

and then let me decide if it's,
if I'm going to pay for it or not.

So

Mario: Yeah, I can, I
can see that reasoning.

That makes sense.

It depends on the product as well.

Because yeah, like you said, if it's
something that people already know what

it is and they know what to expect,
you know Yeah that I can see how just

require the credit card and and don't
charge it until the trial period ends.

But in your case, because it's
it's it, the user's going, gonna

want to explore the product and
kind of, you know, get to know it.

Yeah, I think, I think you have,
I think that's the right approach.

Even though Yeah.

The advice out there is, you know, always.

You know, don't, don't

Alan: Yeah.

Mario: give it away without
requiring requiring the credit card,

Alan: Yeah.

I mean, you have the same dilemma, right?

Especially since running, if someone
does a call, it costs you money.

Right.

You know, from me an additional 10
users it was a bit of server load.

Right.

It's nothing.

Whereas for you, it actually costs
you money to have a free user.

Right.

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is one of, which is one
of the reasons I've been in this

private beta mode for a while.

It's, it's a little
too long for my liking.

I you know, I don't want it to go on
forever, but that's one of the reasons,

you know, there's a cost to running the
system and I want to keep it as controlled

as possible to iron out all the kinks
and it's, that fine line between you

know, spending money on running the
system and allowing the user to test

it and you know, for free, because.

you know, I feel the same
way I, from the user point of

view, I don't like when I have,

to put a credit card in, you know,

Alan: I can understand
the reasoning completely.

And again, in certain situations
it kind of makes sense.

So it's like, well, I know what
this is, and I need this thing,

so I'm going to pay for it.

But some kind of free trial to just let
me really get a feel for it before I

commit to this in any way, even if it's
a free commitment free just entering a

credit card, feels like I'm not ready yet.

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah.

So how are you going to
handle the transition

Alan: Hmm,

Mario: end of trial to charging?

Alan: is a good question.

Mario: Yeah.

Alan: Yeah.

I mean, it's the, the easiest is
literally to, so I know who created

the account, as in, as an account
owner, there's a workspace owner

and then there's team members.

They, any of those can be admin,
but there's one person who is

the owner and always an admin.

And so.

If I hit the paywall, my easiest thing
I'm going to do is basically everybody

else gets a message saying, you need
to tell you, you need to tell your

account owner that you need to pay.

And then the, the owner basically goes to
a page that says, choose a billing method.

That's the, the easiest way.

I'm not sure if it's the best way.

It would be nice if people
don't lose access to their data.

So obviously if they so
the other way would be.

You can't check in or something, right?

So you can't publish a check-in.

So that would be another way of if
people can log in and they can still

see all the things they've done,
but they can't publish anything new,

Mario: it's effectively read-only mode

Alan: read only mode right now,
it goes into read only mode.

So that would probably
be the better version.

It's just a bit more work,

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, because you have to touch
a lot of points in the code

base to make that happen, right.

Because every part of the app where they
can add something, you would have to

Alan: Exactly.

Do I do allow stop comments as well?

Do I stop like reactions?

Do I do, can I, do I
stop them editing things?

So right now you can publish a new way.

Can edit an old one.

You can add comments, you
can react to things and yeah.

So each one of those things it's
like, well, it'd have to go through

an additional check and I'm like,
ah, it seems like a lot of work.

So

Mario: Yeah, it is.

Alan: So the at that's probably what
I'll do is that again, I might change

that late to date, but it's the
easiest thing to get me to launch.

Right.

A lot of these things, there's a,
there's a trade off between the

amount of work to get it to work.

And the, is it the best solution?

Maybe not, but I'll have
to revisit that later.

Mario: you know, as we're talking
about this, I'm thinking here I'm

listening to it and I'm thinking
about it and I don't know.

If you go in that route, right,
you don't require the credit card,

they go through the trial period.

And when that ends, it's almost like
you have to reel them back in and

have them enter that credit card.

Whereas if you do that
beforehand, now you have it.

And now at the end of the trial period,
well, before the end of the trial you.

the way that I would approach
it as you send a message, right.

Cause you don't want to
surprise them with the credit

Alan: The panel does this automatically.

I believe.

I think I have to check, but yeah,
you could just send them a message.

Just say you're about
to be billed for this.

Mario: Yeah.

So you're trialing period ended and
you're about to this amount is going

to be charged on next date or whatever.

So now it's, it's, it's less.

Alan: Less friction at that point.

Mario: Friction because you've
already got the credit card.

You don't have to reel them back in and
have them go to a form where they are

going to punch in their credit card.

So I don't know.

Alan: know I've struggled with this a lot,
because again, the, the problem, as well

as having a free trial period is that you
end up with a lot of churned accounts.

Like, you know, it's easy to sign up
for anything, especially including

even, you know, bots and stuff.

And I, I want to minimize the barrier
to signing up, but at the same point

then there's so, you know, you.

Yeah.

You open up the potential
for abuse, right?

Because, and it's like

Mario: And that's, and that's the
one thing about requiring the credit

card that it helps you weed out.

Those who are not serious about
it, those who are really more

serious about trying your product.

And they're really curious, they're
willing to, put the credit card in.

And I honestly, now that I think
about it, I do feel like that

where if I have to put the credit
card in, I kind of don't like it.

But if it's a product that
I really want to check out.

And that I'm curious about.

I don't mind so much.

I, you know, I know that I'm going to get,
especially if I'm told ahead of time, we

won't bill you, you know, and you know,
we will let you know before you before we

Alan: So another thing to consider
is that there's a potential for.

This as a foray, something that
a team might try without getting

their managers buy in first.

So for instance, you know, we
would like to try this too.

We try it.

And then we tell our boss,
this is useful for us.

Can you get, can you pay for this?

So the moment I can transfer
the ownership of the workspace

to my boss, he pays, it's done.

The other thing to consider
as well as in Japan, Staff

generally don't have credit cards.

You don't have an expense card.

Now every company I've worked for in
the UK in the U S is like, you work

here, here's a card and it's expensed.

And just make sure you
submit your receipts.

Right.

But in Japan, generally,
that doesn't happen.

Staff don't get like
personal credit cards.

So in fact, it's also a potential
problem that Staff can't even get

stuff, signed it like a manager.

She might not be able to get
sign up for, for product has got

to go to her manager's manager.

And then that person will want an invoice
and they'll want to pay with a they have

a paying system here called pay easy,
which is like a bank transfer system that

is done at an ATM And so there's a whole
separate billing system because in general

credit cards are just not that common at
companies, especially at small companies.

So then I've got the, the, the
question is, well, in that case,

it may be, I just split it.

So Japan, you don't.

And I'm like, oh God man,

Mario: No, no,

Alan: which I did think about for a
little while and then like do I do that?

Mario: no, but that's an excellent
point because of the nature.

Again, the nature of
your product, you have.

It's more for teams, right.

More team oriented.

So you have to think about that.

And that's, that's an excellent point.

you want to remove that friction
because you want people to try it

out and then they can go to their
boss and say, Hey, we love this

thing and you know, can we get it?

Alan: Yes,

Mario: Yeah.

Alan: I know this is, this has been,
I mean, same as, as the pricing has

been something I've been toying, you
know, like going around in my head,

I've been back and forth on it a
hundred times just as like you know,

can I really like, especially as you
said, if it's, if it's small team and

yeah, we want to try it out, then if
we like it, then we tell our boss that,

you know, we should use this.

This is useful for us as a team.

Right.

And if you'd, they've got to put in their
own personal credit card to do that,

then it's possibly not going to happen.

Mario: Yeah.

Alan: more of a chance
that's not going to happen.

Right.

I mean, the other thing, as well as
I could just literally, you know, to

tackle abuses like 14 days, how long
do I keep an account for, if somebody,

I mean, I've done this with services.

I sign up for the trial thinking.

Yeah, I might need it.

And then 14 days comes and you go,
I'm not ready to pay for it yet.

And then, you know, like three
months later, I'm think, right.

I need to use that thing.

And I go back and I expect the
account to be still be there.

Right.

Mario: Yeah.

Alan: it's not, I'd be like,
well I'll do the things.

I get emails from services.

And it's like, you haven't used
this Bufala account in three years.

And I'm like, what the hell is that?

We're going to delete your account.

And I'm like, fine, because I
don't know what the hell this is.

Mario: I remember That
when I created that.

Alan: That does a complete sidetrack,
but a slight annoyance and emails is

when a startup as cause it's always
a startup like generally, you know,

the bigger companies, if Stripe emails
uh, you know what Stripe is, right?

But if it's some company that emails
you and says, oh, we noticed you

haven't used such a thing, we've
added a new feature to do this.

I'm like, I have no idea what
your service is and you're

talking about this as if I do.

I tried your product a year ago for.

An hour, if you're lucky.

And then they, you know, rather than
kind of, it would just take a paragraph

at the top of the email saying that,
you know, I was thinking, you know,

product X is the thing, which, you
know, time-tracking you go, oh, right.

Oh, it's a thing.

Right.

But it, you you'd be surprised
at how few companies do that.

always a massive annoyance.

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah.

I actually need to do that cause I'm going
to be sending an email out pretty soon

about with an update about the product

Alan: I need to do the same thing, right?

Yeah.

I've got an email list of
a bunch of people I need to

tell them it's released and I

Mario: Yeah.

And I haven't sent an email in forever.

I, the only one time I sent an email
to some of the people that I was

onboarding and it's been months,
I need to get better at that.

Alan: So I'll make sure you put
a paragraph at the beginning.

Mario: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

I need to get better at communicating.

As we were talking about this, it
reminds Me of something I wanted to

talk to you about, but I think we're
going to have to leave it for next time.

Alan: thanks.

I think

Mario: so we'll have another topic.

to talk.

And it has to do with
wait, what was it again?

As you were talking to

Alan: chances of remembering.

And two weeks was zero.

Mario: I know, right.

I need to add it to my
notes for next time.

Has to do.

with oh yes.

Retention time of recordings.

I need to figure out What I'm
going to do about the the whole

thing of storing files, recordings.

Alan: not free.

Mario: And it, you know, if I don't
introduce some kind of retention period

after which, files get purged, then it, it
just keeps piling up and increasing costs.

So I think I have to introduce
some kind of the, you know, this

concept of retention period.

And for some subscription
plans, it would be less.

Or, you know, the cheaper ones
would have less retention period.

And if you want more, you know, a year
or whatever subscription plan costs more

Alan: again, your billing
is slightly complicated.

Just because yeah, you, well, I
mean, there's so many leavers you can

pull on your billing process, right?

It's like a retention, the how many
recordings, the size and things.

So, yeah, it's

Mario: Yeah, I'm trying to, yeah, I'm
gonna try to keep it simple, you know?

Alan: right?

Yeah.

You have to.

Mario: based it on, on, minutes.

Right.

It's just packaged minutes
and retention period then.

And that's it.

Yeah.

But maybe we can talk about it in more

Alan: talk about that.

It'd be good.

I want to have a think about this as well.

So, because I come with some opinions
because I never have any of that.

Mario: All right.

Cool.

Sounds good.

All right, so this is probably
a good point to wrap it up.

All right.

it's been a minute.

I think I dunno, I think we might've
skipped a week or something, but

Alan: it's, it's a
confusing period of time.

So weeks make no sense anymore.

Mario: But We're back.

and yeah, do this again in a couple of
weeks and until then have a great one.

And I'll talk to you then.

Alan: Cheers.